Vampirism

[BNU-DogBoy]

Greetings, id like to open for debate here a subject ive been researching for a few years. This is mainly because i see no great debate going on here, and rather, not too much forum activity. Hopefully this will give us something to talk about no?

Pre-Warning:
The following is in accordance with my beliefs on Vampirism and is not anything that i claim to be proven medically, because quite frankly it hasnt. All following statements are either subject of opinion or of collaborative vampiric research done by me or my fellows.

So, Vampirism, trying to start up some roleplaying here DB?
Ofcourse not. Let me start by explaining:
Vampirism as I and those iive spoken with on the topic agree it to be, is far different from what you see in a movie or read in a book. The resemblence is much slighter and frankly the using of the word Vampire is nearly shooting ourselves in the foot. But let me begin:
Vampires are real, living people. Just like you or I. There are no fancy powers, murder in the middle of the night for a snack, no fangs, garlic, holywater, crosses, silver, ect, so please dismiss that from your heads. Living, everyday, non-immortal people that you see in your day to day life could be a vampire, and you would never know.

Imagine a buisness man in a suit. He goes about his day like everyone else. Wakes up in the morning tired like us, goes to work and gets smurf from his boss, like us, and he comes home and wants to relax, like us. Hes no different in any extra special sense that anyone would ever notice. Except, he has a secret. A physical dependance on blood or energy.

This is the basic point on where we divide Vampirism: Psi or Sang.
Sangunarians or Sangs as they are for short are the blood feeding vampires. Theres no bite, no murder, none of that. Its done either from beef blood bucher bought or from a small cut on a willing donor. Donors are respected, willing, and never harmed. You dont hurt the people that allow you to survive day to day.

My knowlege on Psi Vampires is little, so ill be breif here:
Psi Vampires feed through the use of auras which they are able to see, as every living thing has one. The exact process of how it is done i could not say, as i have never experianced it. Ive read of others and though it varies a little from person to person, a general agreement is with the merging and seperation of the aura of both Psi and donor.

Now, your asking how do you know this? Why is this anything more than what youve pulled out of your head?
Two years ago in the summer of 2005 i stumbled on DD&D. That site taught me what i know, and i know they are credible from my research around the various points of the internet. Ive spoken with everyone from doctors to roleplayers and vampires themselves. And through this, ive always always asked questions. What i find to be is that the roleplayer/media vision of a vampire cannot physicaly be possible, while those who claim to be the real version agree on the symptoms and effects, which ill go into here.

Vampirism varies heavily from person to person, as conditions usually do. Photosensitivity, inablility to sleep at night due to feeling suddenly awake, hightened senses of night-vision and hearing. (Within reasonable bounds mind you.) All symptoms.
However one is universal that defines the condition:
A physical dependance on blood or energy.
This isnt an obession or fetish, though people out there do have such habits as blood drinking, the difference is the actual need, not for enjoyment of any sort.


Theres alot more i could add on what ive learned but i think this draws out a basic outline for what im saying. The link i provided in my post about where i learned has pages worth of information.

I ask anyone replying to this topic to be open minded and calm in their response, and please understand that this is a belief thats very close to me.

-DB

[fanatacist]

I am atheist, and thus believe in no "evil" or "good" Gods or minions or creatures. I think that rules out vampires for me. My reasons are simple: I only believe in facts and science. It seems impossible for a mutation of a human being resulting from a bite or infection of any kind that would so thoroughly change their DNA to depend solely on blood or a "life force" or "aura" (neither of which I believe in due to atheism). There are many movies outlining many aspects of Vampires and other "evil" creatures that feed off of "energy" and "auras", like in the Blade movies and Nightwatch/Daywatch movies, and like you said, are physically impossible; but I don't see what pushes their case so far away from the blood/spirit dependent ones you described. Even if they are an entirely different species with a similar appearance (which is unlikely because evolution of hominids takes thousands and thousands of years), even then it would be hard to believe that they rely solely on blood for nutrition, and even more so a spiritual aura.  The basic symptoms you listed, excluding the need for blood or aura, are typical of many people and diseases, which is why I believe it is easy to assume Vampirism, or it was easy to the less science-oriented people of the past.

My view on vampires and the Bible (it is related, you will see) is that people who did not know how to explain a strange occurance would make up a reason for their own sanity. That was the basis of the Bible (Why is water coming from the sky? God made it, it's called rain.) and in my opinion Vampirism as well, because of the fears that people had of bats and evil and other related things. Combine fear with imagination with a lack of scientific knowledge and you get dinosaur bones interpreted as dragons, elephant skulls seen as cyclops' heads, and possibly vampires as night-loving blood/aura suckers. Hence, I do not believe in any material vampires, only the ones in our imaginations and movies.

There, I think that was proper and respectful enough :]

[Bnu-Sorceress]

I ask anyone replying to this topic to be open minded and calm in their response, and please understand that this is a belief thats very close to me.

-DB

i'm just curious as to why this belief is very close to you.

i really don't know what i believe on this matter. i believe in the forces of good and evil, i believe in God, but i really dont know if i can take vampires as a real thing. it seems a little far-fetched to me.

[BNU-DogBoy]

Perhaps i should of said this:
Vampires are no creature or evil thing. Vampirism is considered by my beliefs here as a condition, not a seperate race and not an evil bunch of hell spawns. Vampirism has nothing to do with religion or allegiance with anything.

My reasons are simple: I only believe in facts and science. It seems impossible for a mutation of a human being resulting from a bite or infection of any kind that would so thoroughly change their DNA to depend solely on blood or a "life force" or "aura" (neither of which I believe in due to atheism).

Im an atheist myself. Yet also, as i didnt want to type for six pages, Vampires dont exist soley on the blood/psi, its an extra need. They eat and drink as anyone else.

The basic symptoms you listed, excluding the need for blood or aura, are typical of many people and diseases, which is why I believe it is easy to assume Vampirism, or it was easy to the less science-oriented people of the past.

Ive discussed many times what a scientifically and medically reasonable cause would be. However, due to the fact that no one in such a position would pursue this in the intrest of not being called a loony, its a bit hard there.

My view on vampires and the Bible (it is related, you will see) is that people who did not know how to explain a strange occurance would make up a reason for their own sanity. That was the basis of the Bible (Why is water coming from the sky? God made it, it's called rain.) and in my opinion Vampirism as well, because of the fears that people had of bats and evil and other related things.

Also nothing to do with the Vampirism im discussing here.

There, I think that was proper and respectful enough :]

Your a dream dear.
As put in my post, www.drinkdeeplyanddream.com or DD&D will answer anything i havent.

[John]

I ask anyone replying to this topic to be open minded and calm in their response, and please understand that this is a belief thats very close to me.

-DB

i'm just curious as to why this belief is very close to you.

i really don't know what i believe on this matter. i believe in the forces of good and evil, i believe in God, but i really dont know if i can take vampires as a real thing. it seems a little far-fetched to me.

To some people, so does god. An all knowing all powerful being that can blink you out of existance with a wave of something? In all defense, I personally always felt that everyone needs something to believe in, and if god and/or the christian/catholic religion gives you that support than more power to it.

I usually find most religious people that I come into contact with on a daily basis to be more of "sinners" by their own belief structure than me, who they're usually calling a sinner.

Turn on some dude's computer "God doesn't want you to charge me for this" (wtf is with that anyway?), then he has tons of porn and smurf like that, and this guy has a wife and 2 kids with him. "What the heck is all that? I must have a virus, I don't know how that got there".

I dunno, most people use their beliefs improperly which pisses me off. If you're truely religious man, good for you, but don't freaking deviate from the beliefs you claim to hold so true if that is the case.

As far as vampires go. I'd say the non-mythical ones are more possible than god in existing, meaning, not the vampires that we see on buffy, or Angel, but the ones listed above, being normal people that just survive on blood.

There are several tribes in africa that live on animal blood partially as a nutrient drink. Several native american tribes would use the blood as a beverage, while at the same time others would just use it as fertilizer.

Ah well.

~john

[fanatacist]

To BNU-DogBoy:


Alright, sorry that I misunderstood you (or that you didn't put enough information, whatever xD).

If it is a condition, as you said, that would mean they contract it either genetically or first-hand, like some diseases we have today, correct? The reason I can assume this is because such a dependency would almost indefinitely be the result of a change in DNA, altering the human's needs from our standard dosage of calories, proteins, fibers, vitamins and all that to INCLUDE blood or "aura". I can say this with confidence because though not all humans eat the same things, 99% of us eat things that fit into the food pyramid or what not, and require the same nutrients because we are genetically the same. Alterations in necessary diet would stem from a change in that basis of our similarity. So, if you agree with me to this point, then you will surely agree that if it is genetic it can pass from parent to child. Purely as a disease, condition, genetic malfunction, or whatever, I agree with that. Many diseases pass genetically and alter the DNA of the children. However, I find it difficult to believe that any external cause could change a person's DNA after birth. Of course there is radiation and probably chemicals of sorts, but those are all 20th century developments that could not be, chronologically, the cause of any vampires in the past (moreover, I have never heard of radiation poisoning to cause special dietary needs, but that's besides the point). The reason I use for ruling out other ways of contracting this condition, such as virus or bacterial disease, is because if this has happened for hundreds of years, there would have to be some documentation at some point on it. It's almost certain that at one point a vampire, maybe an orphan or a scared one in general, would be unsure of why he needs these things and would thus go to a physician or doctor or something. Many underground societies or secret unions are known about, and those that are hundreds of years old would be even more evident.

That whole paragraph was leading to this statement: even if vampirism could pass parent to child, I find it scientifically impossible for to have spread in the first place externally (as a bite or any other transfer of the malady). So, this leaves only one possibility: a person was born with this genetic mutation naturally, like Down's syndrome, and it was passed down to his children and the children of his children. Though this probably contradicts your belief of them not being a seperate race, this is the only possibility I could see of vampirism existing. Therefore, all vampires are related (though all humans are related, that bloodline started tens of thousands of years ago).

So, if you do not agree completely with the aforementioned conditions, then to me your sense of vampires is impossible. However, if you agree whole-heartedly to those conditions exclusively, I can see a relatively reasonable origin for your belief.

Not saying that I'd believe it any more, because like I said the chances of it being scientifically documented are high, I just think it's more believable and realistic :]

Sorry if I asked or said something that is on that website, I just don't feel like reading a website for the precise information that you could possibly retort with. Most of what I said is based on non-vampire information anyhow.


To Sorc:


I find your God to be less believable than a hereditary genetic dependency on hemoglobin, but I'm not going to start a debate on religion here; just affirming what others have said in that God to some people is no more credible than vampires.


To John:


smurf, I just basically re-phrased what you said to Sorc without meaning to. Oh well.

Anyhow, DogBoy mentioned that people drink blood out of choice and that has nothing relevant to vampirism (this is in response to your African tribes). I believe in blood being a consumable liquid, not necessarily a life or death dependency.



EDIT:

Also to DogBoy:

Also, being atheist, I don't believe in any aura or spirit of sorts, much less one that anyone can feed off of. Just thought I should close that point.

[Bnu-Sorceress]

I dunno, most people use their beliefs improperly which pisses me off. If you're truely religious man, good for you, but don't freaking deviate from the beliefs you claim to hold so true if that is the case.

I don't think i understand what you mean by "dont freaking deviate from the beliefs you claim to hold so true"

and i'm not saying i'm a religious zealot or anything like that. I don't devote my life to going to church or things like that. But I do believe there is a God. God is a divine being. vampires, as "normal people" would not be considered such. I'm not sure if thats what you meant above.

To Fanat:
Can you prove to me that it is a genetic dependence on blood, and not something else?

[fanatacist]

To Fanat:
Can you prove to me that it is a genetic dependence on blood, and not something else?

I tried to prove via induction that this has to be the case. As I said, there are few if any diseases that cause a dependency on any specific vitamin, mineral, protein, etc. Most diseases that require a certain nutrient for recovery are diseases caused due to thelackof this protein, for example scurvy, pellagra, and rickets (look them up if you don't take my word for it). These are not resurfacing diseases unless you once again have adeficiency for this vitamin or whatnot. There are no documented non-genetic diseases, that I have ever heard of, seen, or researched on that create a true dependency (and I have heard of many due to my mother's medical backround and AP Bio and consequent projects. Plus I looked around just now to double check if there are any immediate things that pop up that could be classifed as that). Physical dependencies on alcohol, drugs, etc. actually cause a genetic change that passes on to your children. Therefore, I find that by a process of elimination, it should not be a disease such as scurvy (caused by deficiency of vitamin C, which goes away after you maintain a healthy diet, and is not genetic). However, it must be a genetic alteration, a fundamental change to the person's needs that causes the dependency on blood, because to them including blood IS the healthy diet that could prevent a blood-based equivalent of scurvy. For example, a genetic disorder causing the inability to coagulate blood, also known as hemophilia, is due to a deficiency in vitamin K genetically. That is, the body does not accept/utilize vitamin K properly to assist blood clotting due to agenetic malfunction. I believe that if vampirism did exist, it would have to be a similar genetic lacking or misuse of a protein found only in blood (since I ruled out aura as a possibility due to my atheist nature; I simply don't believe in it since there is no scientific proof), which could be an acceptable version of vitamin K for hemophiliacs. I hope that made sense because to me it could not be any clearer.

I was a bit distracted while typing this so if it is incoherent at some point, quote it and I will re-phrase. Also I might have forgotten to put something in so if it jumps around a bit, I'm sorry.

I can find sources on basically everything I said, if you care to see them, from the list of vitamin-deficiency based diseases to the vitamin K/hemophilia relationship, in verifiable websites (as in, not wikipedia :] ).

[Bnu-Sorceress]

i think i understood what you're trying to say. basically you're saying that vampirism is an inherited, recessive(?) disorder? There is another argument I could bring into this, but I don't really want to introduce it to this topic, so I probably will not do it. I have to go mow the lawn right now so i'll spend some time thinking about it.

[fanatacist]

I never specified if it was recessive or not, because there is not enough information about it for me to make the distinction. You'd have to look at specific families and all that, and since I don't even believe in it, it'd be hard for me to analyze :P But yes, I believe it is a genetic disorder, which is what you were asking me to prove and I think I proved it well enough for now.

You should bring anything related into it :D Don't hesitate. Looking forward to your argument.

[Bnu-Sorceress]

No i'm not bringing it in, because it will spark a whole other debate that i dont want to start.

If you don't believe in vampires, then how can you believe that is a genetic disorder that causes vampirism? thats contradictory within itself.

[fanatacist]

Start a new debate? Or is it religion and therefore too controversial?

Well, I think I said this to DogBoy so I'll quote it here.

That whole paragraph was leading to this statement: even if vampirism could pass parent to child, I find it scientifically impossible for to have spread in the first place externally (as a bite or any other transfer of the malady). So, this leaves only one possibility: a person was born with this genetic mutation naturally, like Down's syndrome, and it was passed down to his children and the children of his children. Though this probably contradicts your belief of them not being a seperate race, this is the only possibility I could see of vampirism existing. Therefore, all vampires are related (though all humans are related, that bloodline started tens of thousands of years ago).

So, if you do not agree completely with the aforementioned conditions, then to me your sense of vampires is impossible. However, if you agree whole-heartedly to those conditions exclusively, I can see a relatively reasonable origin for your belief.

Not saying that I'd believe it any more, because like I said the chances of it being scientifically documented are high, I just think it's more believable and realistic :]

[Bnu-Sorceress]

yes but see, by you coming up with an explanation for vampires, you are affirming your belief in them. while at the same time you claim you do not believe in them. you can't have it both ways.

[fanatacist]

Not exactly. I was disagreeing with him to the point of creating only one plausible possibility for the existance of vampires. But even so, to me it's just a possibility and still an unlikely one at that. However, it's more logical than what I tried to disprove. I don't believe in them, I just made a hypothetical possibility for their origins as based upon my argument against them. Here's an example:

[[Note: This is not to start a religion debate, it's just an arbitrary example.]]

My view on vampires and the Bible (it is related, you will see) is that people who did not know how to explain a strange occurance would make up a reason for their own sanity. That was the basis of the Bible, in my opinion (Why is water coming from the sky? God made it, it's called rain).

By coming up with an explanation for God, or people's reason for believing in him, am I affirming my belief in him? No. In fact, I'm denouncing it.

[Bnu-Sorceress]

You're explanation for God was one based solely on faith and the need for a reason. You actually came up with a scientific explanation for vampires. That puts them on two different levels.